Mark Chats with Judy Robinett – World Famous Author and Power Connector


In this episode of the Best Passive Income Model Podcast, Mark chats with Judy Robinett – author of “How to be a Power Connector: The 5+50+150 Rule for Turning Your Business Network into Profits“. Judy is an entrepreneur, speaker and consultant with more than 30 years of experience as a corporate leader. She’s truly a relationship expert who shares great tips that can have a huge impact.

Judy shares insight into the concept behind being a Power Connector and how it’s all about having the power to make things happen for yourself and others. She shares the value of focusing on the 25-50 quality relationships that can have the biggest impact on your business. This is an episode you don’t want to miss!

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Mark: Hey, it’s Mark Podolsky, the Land Geek, with your favorite nichey real estate website, And today, I’m really excited because it’s not every day that I get to have a world famous author of How to be a Power Connector. Judy Robinett, my guest, has been for more than 30 years, a corporate leader and entrepreneur. She has been profiled in fast company, Forbes, VentureBeat, Huffington Post, and Business Week as a leading example of a new breed of super connectors who use their networks to create breakthrough results.

So I have to tell you guys, Judy Robinett is a big deal and the fact that she is finally on the most prestigious podcast, The Best Passive Income Model podcast, I couldn’t be more thrilled. Judy, how are you?

Judy: I’m great, Mark. I’m excited to be here.

Mark: Judy, what the heck is a power connector?

Judy: So that’s a great question. So the reason the word power is it’s the power to make things happen for yourself and other people. So there are so many resources on this planet. There’s no lack of resources. There are seven million people, 369 trillion of private global wealth and so many opportunities you can count. And all of those things are what you need to achieve your dream, whatever it is. So the power is really to make things happen.

Mark: It’s interesting because the cliché in real estate even in business is it’s all about relationships. It’s all about relationships. It’s all about relationships. We hear it all the time. Everyone who comes to the podcast, relationships, relationships, relationships, and it’s so true. So what is the 5 + 50 + 150 Rule?

Judy: So it’s based on research. The first circle of people around you, your friends and family, that tends to be the 5, 5 to 15 people.

Mark: OK.

Judy: And the 150, that top number is known as Benford’s Law, the groups fall apart, even Roman armies were put in groups of 150 or less. So that’s kind of the upper limit. So my critical sweet spot is 25 to 50 people. You have 25 to 50 quality relationships that are diverse. You can literally make anything happen.

Mark: Twenty-five to fifty is our max, right?

Judy: Yeah. Well, that’s the ones to really work on about being strategic with your network. And you think about where are the people hanging out that you need? So a short story, I was introduced to a fellow in Salt Lake who had been hired by a top wealth management firm. He came to Salt Lake. He was pretty conservative and he’s black and he’s gay. And in two years, he built this tremendous book of business. And I said to him, “Geez, you come to town. You don’t know anybody. How did you do this?” And he just smiles he says, “I joined the symphony and I paid the extras so I could go before the event and have some wine and meet some of the movers and shakers in town. And that’s where all of my clients hang out.”

Mark: Wow! Interesting. So from a management standpoint because you’ve been a CEO of both public and private companies, how does this work in a day-to-day corporate environment?

Judy: So the higher you go in leadership, the more – everything depends on people. As a manager, you have operational. You’re pretty clearly defined in policies, procedures. But the higher you go, the more critical it is to be able to strategically network because you’re trying to grow a business. If you’re trying to grow a business, you’ve got to do biz dev, which mean meeting strangers, figuring out how to get access to people that will help scale your business. So it’s absolutely critical.

Most companies at one point or another need to raise funds. Strategic networking solves the tough problems. You can get on Google and find a doctor, a dentist, or an accountant but finding somebody that can raise one to five million in the next six months is a little tougher. So it requires the strategic networking.

Mark: Right, right. So when you talk about strategic networking, how do you – I mean from a practical standpoint, let’s say that I’m in a room with Judy Robinett and let’s face it, you’re intimidating. OK?

Judy: Really?

Mark: Well, I mean – I would have put on my anchorman voice like you are a big deal. Right?

Judy: Well, thanks. But the reality Mark is if any of your listeners or you saw Napoleon Dynamite, I went to that high school. I was raised in a town of 300,000 people in Franklin, Idaho and I was so shy, I didn’t dare talk to people. And then I was bullied in junior high. It left me feeling like I was dumb, fat, and ugly honestly.

And so when people say to me I’m a big deal, I say, “You can be just big a deal,” because what I learned is your network equals your net worth and nothing happens without people. Nothing. People have the deals, people have the opportunities. They write the checks. And most people will help you if you ask.

Mark: Yeah. But what if you’re an introvert? So I’m shy, I’m intimidated. I’m in a room with you and someone whispers to me, “Oh my gosh! That’s Judy Robinett and she wrote this book. You’ve got to meet her.” How do I go up to you? Now, you’re in a room of people who are also kind of intimidating. They’re very comfortable. They’re in a conversation with you. How do I saddle up to you and have the courage and break the ice with you? And how do I come off in a way where it’s not all about me?

Judy: So, you just walk up, smile, put your hand out, shake my hands and say, “I’m Mark, excited to talk to you or I’ve read your book.” And let me tell you something that helps, Mark, half of the people in United States identified as shy. Half of us!

Mark: Is that right?

Judy: Half of us. And that was – and usually, it has to do with fear. So inside, we got to kind of trim, we’re thinking, “How could I add value? Why would this person want to talk to me?” And half of us feel that way. I mean I thought I was an introvert until I was about 40. And when I stated telling people I was shy, they laughed at me. And so, I had this feeling that what value would I have to offer? Well, the older you get, the more you find out the power of just listening to a person and literally caring.

And research shows that we only talk to strangers 2 to 3% of the time, which is really sad. That’s where the gold is because when you network, what I typically find is most people have their family and friends. But if they have to – the next 25 to 50 people are just like them, which is painful about the time you need to find funding for your company or find a new job or something that requires a network that’s a little broader. And frankly, some of the best networkers in the world are shy.

Mark: Yeah.

Judy: The author of The Go-Getter is shy. When I was interviewed by him, he had said to me, “I’m like you. People would never guess.” And I suspect people, Mark, they would never guess you, Mark, were shy.

Mark: Oh yeah, I’m shy and I would probably be embarrassed about throwing out my sweaty hand to you.

Judy: Well, there’s nothing to be…

Mark: I’m very sorry, my hand is sweaty.

Judy: Yeah. We’re all human beings. And the truth is, we all come to earth with gifts but we all have problems. And everybody has got problems, millionaires, billionaires. As long as you’re alive, you’ve got problems. You have goals. You have things you need. And there’s the magic. If you can figure out to add value instantly, to figure out value proposition, the majority of the people are thrilled, absolutely thrilled to know you. And it only takes a few simple things to really put yourself above the crowd.

And I love Charlie Munger who is Warren Buffett’s business partner and he said, out of 100 people he meets, 5 are keepers, 20 he doesn’t care to see again as long as he lives, and the rest are kind of opt-in, let’s wait and see what they’re about. So if you get out of your head and focus on the person in front of you, you can pretend they’re your best friend. You just focus on them, ask a couple of questions. It’s just like pulling a cork out of a wine bottle then you can rarely get them to stop talking about themselves.

Mark: OK. Now, do you have a list of power connector questions or super connector questions that you recommend?

Judy: So the two things – so when I was asked to write a book, I thought they were nuts. I didn’t see myself as a networker and I finally had to really pay attention to what I did. And I discovered when I meet strangers, I do two things. Number one is I offer an authentic compliment. And number two is ask a question. And that allows you to talk to anyone anywhere.


And I’m at the point, I can interrupt people. I mean I’ve been at Barnes & Noble sipping on my hot chocolate. It’s a place where I wrote my book. And I listened to two young guys behind me starting about their startup and they’re literally good. They’ve pivoted two to three times. They figured out a brand new model but when they start talking about how to get funding, they’re lost.

And I think, just five minutes, I could really help them. So I turned around and said, “Excuse me. I’m an investor. May I give you some information?” And they said, “Sure. Sit down.” And they took notes for 20 minutes. So that was adding value, just trying to help.

Curiosity is another thing that’s really helpful if you’re just curious about other people. But if you have in your head and your skill box being able to listen authentically with your head, your heart, beside your ears, it will get you everywhere.

Mark: Right, right. So let me ask you. How do you manage this massive digital rolodex? Because not only your – I mean you’re over that 150, I mean way over that 150. So how does that work because we’re in this frictionless digital social media climate now, how do you manage it and how much time do you devote to it?

Judy: I don’t even do an hour a day. I mean there are just a few actions that I do daily, weekly, monthly that really allowed me to build a network, maintain it, plus leverage for the good of all people. I make it a point making a couple of introductions for people once a week.

Mark: OK.

Judy: I make sure when I need someone, I link up with them on LinkedIn. I’ll follow them on Twitter. And then I’m also very much like Charlie Munger, it’s kind of wait and see because a lot of people, they’ll meet you and they’re like excited, “We’re going to do this together and this.” And then you wait and nothing happens.

And so, I don’t spend tons of time. I’ve got like 25 really key folks that I probably send an email to you or talk to on the phone two to three times a month. I also curate some of the best information like or whatever and there will be an article on funding, new things in funding I can send out to  about ten people and take care of that group in one fell swoop.

Mark: OK. Interesting. So tell me about the evolution for you and how you went from corporate America and I mean your dramatic rise and then transitioned into – I mean how would you describe what you do now? I mean you’re an author but you’re also a speaker and you also are an Angel investor and on boards. So how does all that work? I mean how did that all happen?

Judy: So, after being shy and all of that stuff, I went to college, got a degree, ended up working in corporate America, Fortune 300 corporation, and I’ve been taught to keep my head down, to work hard, don’t ask anyone for help. And research shows, if you’ve been raised lower to middle class, you’re top that. And I look around and I said, “This is not working for me. There are other people out there. They don’t seem to be much smarter than me. They’re not working as hard as I am and they’re getting further ahead in their career.”

And I didn’t dare ask anybody for help. And I picked up the book, How to Win Friends and Influence People. And that’s where I learned to just smile, say hello. I tried it and I was so shocked. People liked me. And that kind of gave me courage to go to the next and then the next step and the next step. And so, it emboldens you as you just tank the first time you talk to a stranger and then you realized, “Wow! Why am I not talking to more strangers?” So that’s really how I did that.

So after the corporate world, I actually was giving a speech at MIT and picked up a Wall Street Journal that had an article on how to be financially independent in America and had it five ways, be a doctor, a lawyer, an inheritor or a Marriott and I thought well, those are out. And the fifth one was start a business. And I went, “Oh! How hard can it be?” Well, dumb me. I got a $1.2 million SPA loan and I started a franchise restaurant. I mean how dumb? And almost went bankrupt. But I was able to turn it around. Then I was asked to become CEO of this small public company and found out I was really good at raising money and how much of everything developed or required relationships.

And so, just step-by-step, I kind of kept moving a little bit out of my comfort zone. And comfort zones trap you. And in Hebrew, I recently read there are two words for fear. And the one is that gut-wrenching panic. It’s when I run to my cave with dark chocolate. And the second one is when you get out of comfort zone and you’re really achieving something and you’re going, “Yes!” And that is the good fear.

And so, if you can just keep taking a little risk, getting out of your comfort zone then one day you wake up and you go, “Oh my gosh! I’m an author.” And somebody thinks they’d be worried about putting their hand out to me because it’s sweaty. I mean really? I get emails from people all over the world and I write to them and I often talk to people all over on the phone because guess what? I’m happy to help. And that’s part of my thing. And you can tell a whole lot about people.

Also, research shows when you first meet someone, the one thing they look for is warmth. And the smile, the handshake and you listen. You’re in that list of five people that Charlie Munger says you can’t live without.

Mark: That is really interesting and insightful. And you’re still able to respond to all these people because how do you handle it from a time management aspect? I mean my inbox, it takes literally like five days to get through it and I’m almost embarrassed that I’m sending sort of these terse emails to people asking me questions because I feel like I don’t have any more bandwidth to do much more if I’m going to get it done.

Judy: Yeah. And that happens to me particularly with social media/have a social media. But I have them note people that I need to get back to or situations. But I still and I don’t get hundreds of emails a week but recently, I got one from a young man from Nigeria who wrote and said that, “Actually finished Chapter 3.” He got his company funded. And I was like, “Yes!”

Mark: Wow!

Judy: And I wrote to him and continue to write to him. And so – and you can come up with a boiler plate format that covers most of the questions or there’s usually a process you can put in place, Mark, that will deal with a lot of people so individually because you obviously don’t have time to respond to every single person.

Mark: Right, right. I have to tell you, I got chills when you just said that about Chapter 3 and the guy in Nigeria, I mean that’s amazing.

Judy: Yeah, I love it. If all that happened was that kind of an experience, I love it. Another one was a young man out of London and he wrote to me and he said, “I read your book and I graduated top of my class as a lawyer and I cannot get in any of the doors of…” in England, they call them solicitors, firms.

So I wrote to him and I said, “Think about this, this, and this. Know by the way I’m going to CC one of my friends who is a senior partner at Stoel Rives who I know does some work in London and send your resume.” And bless his heart, my friend, Bill, the lawyer from Stoel got back to him within an hour and arranged for him to go meet just a couple of friends to give him some advice. And he wrote me a month later. He had a job.

And that’s exact – I mean I wrote this book so people could see how to make things happen and it’s pretty simple but you have to change some of the beliefs in your head, stranger danger fallacy works really well when you’re a kid. It does not work when you’re an adult because there’s virtually nothing you can do without other people. I mean really. And so, that’s how.

Mark: That’s really interesting. I want to ask about – and it’s a little personal so I hope it doesn’t make you uncomfortable. But I’ve got a 10-year-old daughter and she is a girly girl. She plays with Barbie. She works really, really hard in school. But I can see as she is going to age, she’s going to hit that point in time where there’s going to be like that critical decision where it’s going to be like, “OK, am I going to take my schooling really seriously or am I going to take boys and social life kind of seriously?” Developmentally, kind of use it or lose it. What advice would you give me as a dad to kind of raise my daughter to become a Judy Robinett?

Judy: Well, I believe that every child or everybody has gifts. And she certainly needs to follow your passions by paying close attention to where are her gifts, where do you see a career. And then I would get her out with some folks. So youngsters that I’m introduced to that are thinking about medical school, I get them with one of my friends that’s a doctor to follow around for a day. I try to get them in an environment that exposes them to something very real and practical because as a kid, I was just taught you could be what, just a few things. I didn’t realize how many things were out there. But I wasn’t exposed to that.

I remember the first woman doctor I met and I was in my 20s so I would be careful of what your daughter may have interest in. I mean if it’s the fashion world, I would get her to New York. If it’s the movie world, I’d get her to LA. I would arrange some interactions with folks and make sure she is outgoing and has some real experiences.

Mark: Yeah, phenomenal advice. I love that. And I’ll definitely let my wife listen to this podcast.

Judy: And I’m happy to talk to your wife. How old is your daughter?

Mark: She is 10.

Judy: Yeah, yeah.

Mark: I mean I think culturally for young girls, we see that happen in like the Kardashian society. It’s like this is what you’re kind of leading where versus what you’re talking about which is your passion and your gifts and your skills and not those external things.

Judy: Yeah.

Mark: But I think culturally, it’s very hard and very easy for girls to become self-conscious and kind of lose themselves in that.

Judy: Yeah. And if you can get her involved in a STEM program, Science Technology Engineering Math, they have lots of programs out there. They now have programs for girls about being entrepreneurs or being entrepreneurial. I’m working on a TV show that will be reviewed by Mark Burnett called Girls Starter. It’s for teen girls starting companies. And I see really good things like Shark Tank is one of the top shows families view. And so, I now have teenagers that can talk to me about evaluation or whether my investment might be good or bad, which is kind of cool.

And so, I think there are good things going on culturally, more women finally kind of breaking the glass ceiling but certainly with Web 3.0, all the access that we have, the world is kind of at your doorstep if you just develop some of these emotional IQ skills of listening, caring about people, being empathetic. And the one thing I always say, if you can travel with your kids, I think about what travelling literally has done to my mind and I suggest that to everybody.

Mark: Oh wow! OK. That’s very cool. So if you said to me, “Mark, you’re only allowed to spend an hour a day on this one social media site to become a power connector,” what would you recommend and why?

Judy: I would never recommend one. The two that I like best are Twitter and LinkedIn.

Mark: OK.

Judy: LinkedIn has 350 million professionals and they joined because they want to network with you. And so, I would set up a profile on Twitter and on LinkedIn. I mean if you’re a creative sort or I would think about Instagram but the two that I really like are LinkedIn and Twitter because Twitter gives you access. You can really get access to anybody.

Mark: Right, right. Now, let’s say that I want to raise a couple of million dollars for my land fund. Would you say go to LinkedIn first and look for some real estate groups raising capital and start connecting there or do I start with my 5 and then go to my 50 and then go to my 150? I mean what’s the protocol, the Judy Robinett protocol?

Judy: So raising money means first that people know you, like you, and trust you. I mean rarely will someone that has not met you or doesn’t know unless it’s what we called dumb money. And so, I would start locally. So the biggest sin honestly that I see that people make is they don’t utilize the network they already have. And this happens to me every week.

So for example, my agent called me one day and said, “I’m going to introduce you to Mike Muhney. He’s the co-founder of ACT! Software that sold for 48 million. He now has an app called Vipor, which is for contacts and I think maybe the two of you could do something.” So he flies me to Salt Lake and I find out, his app is one of the top listed and I said, “I’ve never heard of this. What are you doing for marketing?” And he looked kind of sad and he told me a few things. And he said, “Oh gee, I think if I could just get an article in Success Magazine, it would just really help me with marketing.” And I looked at him and I said, “OK. When you get back home, I want you to call Wendy who I’ve known for less than six months, who you’ve known for six years. One of her friends is Darren Hardy who owns and publishes Success Magazine.” And he almost fell out of his chair.

Mark: Wow!

Judy: And the problem is pretty profound. So our influence is limited to a friend of a friend of a friend. But the problem is we don’t talk to our friends. We don’t share our story where we’re going. So first off, I would map out who you already have in your network and go to 25 people and say to them, “I’m going to start this fund. This is why.” And then I ask what I call my two golden questions. And this will get you everywhere in life. Number one, what other ideas do you have for me?

Mark: What other ideas do you have for me? I love it. OK.

Judy: Number two, who else do you know I should talk to?

Mark: I’m writing this down by the way.

Judy: So these are kind of my two golden questions. So you’ll be shocked. I mean I really challenge everybody that listens to this to go to just ten of their friends in their network and share with them what they’re doing. You’re going to write a book. You’re building your real estate company and whatever. And then say it and then you listen very carefully. What happens is you network up and out.

So for instance, I’m friends with a fellow in Utah. He has the number one real estate fund. I think it is the Rock and he did exactly this. He started local and when he got some traction, when you get your first investor in the door, that’s called the weed, then that shows somebody else has vetted you. They know you, like you, and trust you. That person of course knows other people with money. And so, you’d be a little bit strategic but certainly, yes, you can go to the real estate groups on LinkedIn but I would start in your local community. Go to some industry conferences.

And the other thing I would tell people to do is find somebody who has already been there and done it and go sit down with them and say, “How did you practice A? How did you get from point A to point C? And again, what other ideas do you have for me? Who else do you know I should talk to?”

Mark: Yeah. Brilliant. Brilliant. All right, Judy. Now, we’re at the point in the podcast where I’m going to explain to you my business model and ask you, do you think I have the best passive income model? Are you ready?

Judy: Yes!

Mark: All right. So I buy and sell raw land. And the way I do it is I look for someone who is distressed in some way. They owe back taxes. And then we’ll send them a lowball offer, pennies on the dollar, which a percentage of them will accept typically because they owe back taxes and they live out of state. So they’re not emotionally connected to that property anymore.

And so we then buy that property and then we’re going to flip it online and make a 300% return or we’ll do what I like to do for the passive income, which is owner-finance on a land contract. So it’s a one-time sale and then we get recurring revenue typically at about a thousand percent ROI.

And the great thing about it is we don’t have to deal with renters, no repairs, no renovations, no rodents. We’re in a noncompetitive niche because you don’t call and HD TV and see flip this land. And we don’t have to deal with any regulations like Dodd-Frank or RESPA because we don’t have a tenant.

Judy Robinett,, super power connector, do I have the best passive income model?

Judy: Well, I don’t know a whole lot about real estate but if that is working for you and you’ve got those kinds of margins, my hat is off to you. That’s great. My one question is how do you scale this? And you can make x amount of money but if you wanted to go to the next level, can you find other people to work with you? Could you sell this out to other people, teach them how to do it, almost like a franchise model? So it sounds good to me but I’ll tell you, I just recently was introduced to a woman in Salt Lake who has a program you can Google called Big Visibility, Big Profits. And she figured out how to do an 8-week group webinar with folks. She just tipped $50,000 a week last week.

Mark: Wow!

Judy: And the webinars are pretty recorded so you only do them once and then she does a one hour strategy call with the group and has a private Facebook group. And that’s a nice model. So there are many, many models out there. So you really think about what part of this do you absolutely love and then you think about how could you scale it? Now, if you’re happy and you’re making lots of money, great. Just keep doing it. But at some point, you will probably say, “I could make more money. So how could I scale this? Could I teach it? Could I…” whatever.

Mark: Right, right. It’s interesting. I do both. And this model is easy to scale because we don’t have to do anything physical. So it’s all just shuffling papers. So it’s literally just a number’s game. How many offers can you make in a week and how many deals can you close? And really the only barrier to scale is money. And…

Judy: Well, time.

Mark: And time, but then you leverage your time with what we call acquisition managers.

Judy: Yeah. Well, it sounds great.

Mark: Yeah, yeah. Great. Now, I’m going to put you on the spot again and I’m going to ask you for your tip of the week, a website, a resource, a book, something actionable that the Best Passive Income Model listeners can go and do right now to improve their businesses, improve their lives. Judy, what do you got?

Judy; So, I just picked up a book Triggers by Marshall Goldsmith. And it is superb. And it talks about how our environment limits us and it has you come up with three to five goals and then you ask yourself a question, did I do my best today to lose weight, build my business, whatever? And you rate yourself from 1 to 10.

I started doing it. It’s pretty profound. And he has just superb examples in the book. It’s a short easy read. He’s considered one of the top executive coaches in the world, coaches Fortune 500 CEOs. So it’s a valuable little book.

Mark: Marshall Goldsmith’s book, Triggers. I will get that today.

Judy: Good.

Mark: Is there an audio version? I love Audible.

Judy: There probably is.

Mark: OK. Are you on Audible?

Judy: Yes;

Mark: Oh, fantastic! Did you read it or did you have an…

Judy: No, no. Somebody else did it.

Mark: OK. What was that process like? Was it enjoyable or was it like…

Judy: Yeah. The woman called me and said, “Are there any parts you want me to emphasize or others?” And she was a professional at it and did it for McGraw-Hill. And so, I didn’t do much at all honestly.

Mark: OK. Well, very cool. My tip of the week is to learn how to be a super connector and go to I’ll actually have the link in the show notes. And do yourself a favor, invest in the book, How to be a Power Connector: The 5 + 50 + 150 Rule for Turning Your Business Network into Profits. I can’t stress it enough because at the end of the day, business, real estate, life is all about [0:33:40] [Indiscernible].

Judy: Relationships, yeah.

Mark: Relationships, exactly. And clearly, Judy has cracked the code. So Judy Robinett, are we good?

Judy: We’re good.

Mark: All right. Well, this was great. I want to just thank you again for taking time out of your busy day.

Judy: Well, you’re more than welcome. And folks that are listening, feel free to reach out on LinkedIn. It’s Judy Robinett, no E on the end of Robinett. Or tweet, happy to connect.

Mark: Yeah. You know what? I’m going to actually do that today. So I’m going to hitch you up on social media and then spread that around my blog and Twitter and really brag about the fact that I was able to get you on the podcast.

Judy: Oh my gosh! Mark, it’s delightful to meet you. And so, thank you.

Mark: Thank you. All right. So I do want to remind all the Best Passive Income Model listeners, please subscribe, rate, and review the podcast. It’s the only way we’re going to get the quality of guest like a Judy Robinett to come on the podcast. And I really appreciate it, so please do that.

And go to and download for free the Passive Blueprint, the ebook, How to Avoid Three Fatal Land Buying Mistakes, and of course, get this always informative and engaging podcast delivered each week to your email inbox. This is Mark Podolsky, the Land Geek. Judy Robinett,, thank you again and we’ll see everybody next time.

Judy: Thank you.

Outro: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Best Passive Income Model Podcast. Join us next time for more business insights, strategies and helpful tips that will help you grow your passive income through land investing. Stay connected with Mark Podolsky, the Land Geek, on Facebook at

Mark Chats with Michael Quarles from

In this episode of the Best Passive Income Model Podcast, Mark chats with Michael Quarles – California broker, active investor since the age of 19, founder of, host of the hugely popular podcast Buy Sell Fix Flip, and founder of Michael shares how he got his start with investing and how he uses the strategy of “wholetailing”.

Thank you for listening to The Best Passive Income Model podcast.  Your support helps me attract great guests who share knowledge that you can use to grow your business.

If you’d like to help out the Land Geek Community, please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast on iTunes.

Tip of The Week:

Check out this episode!

Mark: Hey, it’s Mark Podolsky, the Land Geek, with your favorite nichey real estate website, And today is going to be a little bit different, a little bit interesting, a little bit unique. My guest today on the Best Passive Income Model podcast is Michael Quarles from But you probably know him best from He is a California broker. He is a big-time podcaster at the Buy Sell Fix Flip podcast. And he’s also going to teach me a new term called wholetailer. I don’t what the heck that is but we’re going to learn about it.

He has been an active investor since 19 years of age. Michael Quarles, welcome to the podcast. How are you?

Michael: I’m doing great. Thanks for inviting me. This is going to be fun.

Mark: I’m thrilled to have you. I don’t even know at the start you guys have such a huge resume. But let’s just start from the very, very beginning, a young, naïve, wet behind the ears, never done a deal in his life. Michael Quarles, what happened?

Michael: Gosh! Everything wrong. It was – I was waiting – I had enlisted in the Air Force and it was the summer and my enlister report date was like towards October, November, December kind of thing. And I picked up a newspaper. I had no clue why. And I saw this ad from Century 21 on a piece of dirt. I had no clue what I was talking about, not doing or anything except Art 2. Art 2 meant nothing to me.

Mark: Right.

Michael: But I was bored. And so, I called them and he said, “Well, that means that you could put a duplex on it.” So I thought a duplex. And I remember I took architectural drawing or mechanical drawing in high school for a couple of years. And so, I could stick draw kind of stuff. So I thought, “Well, I’ll just go start building this duplex.”

And I wrote a bad check for the deposit, $2,000. It didn’t clear. I didn’t realize they were going to try to cash it. Started building on the property before I owned it. I didn’t realize – I thought that just – we were an escrow so that meant I was going to get to buy it. And so, if I was going to get to buy it, I might as well start building.

So I went and got permits and had very little money but a lot of effort. And I had that superman cape on and I was so young and naïve but that’s the only reason I did it is because I didn’t know I couldn’t do it. And so, I just started building duplex and here we are, almost a thousand houses later.

Mark: A thousand houses later. Wow! So what is your model then? I mean what really – all this time and all these deals, like what do you love to do as far as your niche in real estate?

Michael: It’s probably what everybody else loves to do. I really love making money. And what I have found is that I can make more money by doing less work on a property than by doing more work on the property. And I have – I’ve built houses. I have built duplexes, triplexes, 4-plexes, 12-plexes. I bought house and rehab them. I built all that stuff, making stuff that was ugly pretty again.

Mark: Right.

Michael: My model today is what I call wholetailing.

Mark: Wholetailing.

Michael: So I buy up property in its as is value.

Mark: OK.

Michael: So I don’t worry about ARB. I don’t care about ARB. All I care about is if I were an appraiser and I went out to appraise a house that was falling down, what is the appraised val8e of that house? I take 60 cents on the dollar or 50 cents on the dollar.

Mark: OK.

Michael: Buy it and I sell it through the MLS at 100 cents on the dollar. So I’m not assigning. I’m not wholesaling. I’m not rehabbing. I’m not doing anything other than getting a contract. Fulfilling that contract, so I’m buying the property. I’m either using seller financing, sub two financing, or private financing or taking money out of my cash account.

Mark: OK.

Michael: And then at the same time, turning over and selling it. Now, I know because I’m a broker in California that I have the right to start marketing the property with equitable interest and the seller gives me the title of seller. So I list every property once I have it under contract on the Multiple Listing Service. The next day, my contract tells the seller that I’m doing it.

So I tell the seller, “I’m going to put a for sale sign on your property. I’m going to put it in the Multiple Listing Service and I’m going to make a huge amount of profit selling this property while I’m buying it from you. And huge is the biggest word.

Mark: And what do they say? They don’t care?

Michael: They don’t care. They just want the money that we agreed to.

Mark: OK. But why are they agreeing to such a low price? Why are they agreeing to 60 cents on the dollar?

Michael: Everybody has an emotional or a physical reason to do it. So an emotional would be maybe in the past, they used a realtor and they didn’t like that experience.

Mark: OK.

Michael: A physical reason, maybe the house doesn’t afford a realtor, meaning a realtor wouldn’t list it. These are equity-based properties so I don’t do any margin buying. So everything has to have a bucket load of equity because I’m buying it that 60 and that 50% of value.

Mark: Right.

Michael: If I got the 70%, I would think I’m doing a bad job.

Mark: OK.

Michael: So it’s like the judge I bought a house from who sold me his house. He said, “Mike, I know you’re going to make 60 grand on it.” I actually made more than I bought it from him for. So I bought it from him for a value and I made more than twice that value. And he said, “But I just can’t have you tell anybody who sold the house. So there was a reason for him emotionally not to sell it traditionally.

Mark: I see.

Michael: There are thousands or almost a thousand stories like that. And the reality is, we buy them all over the country, we never ever, ever knock on the door.

Mark: No knock on the door.

Michael: So here’s the cool part. I don’t see the seller. They don’t see me. We don’t care what each other looks like. I have knocked on that front door. I know what they look like. They’re all three feet wide kind of stuff, 6 feet, 8 inches high. They have a knob. They push and you say hello when you walk in kind of stuff. We are buying them all over the United States and everything is all email, FedEx, or fax and rarely a fax because who has a fax machine?

Mark: Right.

Michael: And everybody has a need to sell. So we back it up with – we have seven data sets we use to value a property and back it up with a BPO and a formal appraisal. So we’re getting the property that’s worth the value that we think it is.

Mark: Right.

Michael: And then turning and sell to somebody who wants to take it at whatever condition it’s in. So it might be a palace.

Mark: Right.

Michael: It could be a palace. It doesn’t mean anything. Or it could be leaning to the left a little bit too much and you might be able to see the skies through the roof, and take it and rehab it. And either way is OK.

Mark: Yeah. It’s so funny because I want to ask you what part of the monopoly board you play in but it sounds like you play on the whole board. Is that right?

Michael: Absolutely. Everything is an opportunity as long as at the core, the numbers make sense. So the numbers don’t lie and you surely can’t sharpen your pencil. So if the numbers are true and any business especially our business is driven by marketing. So if you’re in business, you’re really in a marketing business that markets your product. Our product is buying houses.

Mark: Right.

Michael: And if you do enough of it, the phone blows up. We had 660 opportunities last month to buy houses. We contracted 32 of those.

Mark: OK

Michael: So some of those went away because they did appraise after we did our BPO and our formal appraisal and 18 of them stuck. And we are averaging probably not a lot here in San Francisco or New York or LA or something. But we are averaging about 27 met at the end of the day per property so that’s not a bad thing when you don’t have to say hello to a seller.

Mark: We don’t have to say hello to a seller. So you really have a very interesting model. Now Michael Quarles himself is not – you’re just a CEO of this operation.

Michael: Yeah, I’m a big Michael Gerber fan. Anytime you understand that we all start out as the technician and then we move in to the manager and then ultimately in the entrepreneur. My job is to make sure that I have asset sufficient enough for my businesses to perform at the level I want them to perform and that’s the only job I have. As long as we have systematization that causes an ordinary person to be put inside of that system and to extraordinary results out of them then you know you have the best – I think one of the best passive income businesses you can have.

So I love it because I don’t need to talk to a seller and we’re using – what’s really unique about our business is we don’t use real estate investors. So I have key people who are real estate investors but the majority of the communication that’s done with the seller is done with the seller by people who don’t know anything about buying a house. All they’re doing is following a script and a system that causes them to go from question 1 to question 40 and somewhere in the middle are systems to evaluate that property for value.

Mark: OK. So this is very interesting. I love this model actually. So because you really have a very similar model in the sense that – we’re going to talk about mine later, but you don’t have to deal with a seller in the sense that you’re not meeting them belly to belly so you can scale, so you can do it anywhere in the country, and you’re not having to deal with a tenant, and you’re not dealing with any kind of rehab, correct?

Michael: Rarely will we deal with a tenant. Most of the time, we ask for it to be tenant-free. Sometimes that’s one of the negotiation factors that causes the seller to mitigate some of their equity.

Mark: Right.

Michael: But for 260 bucks, you can get a tenant out. And so, what some people think are huge barriers, they’re not huge barriers.

Mark: What do the people think that are the huge barrier?

Michael: Well, like if you had property that had a tenant that is unwilling to vacate, a new investor might think that that would be a huge barrier. It’s not.

Mark: OK.

Michael: You just reduce the price of the house by the cost that’s involved in getting that tenant out. So we rarely deal with huge barriers. We have a seller that wants to sell and we have a buyer that wants to buy and I know that my end buyer wants to buy as well because I’m positioning those properties on the market at what appears to be less than value because I’m selling them in the as is condition.

Mark: Right, right. So are there any issues like I know a guy in California that strictly bought mold property. He would go in. He would spend a couple of thousand bucks or whatever it was Do the mold remediation and then flip those properties and he will make $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 property because no one wanted them. So he buys them 40, 50 cents on the dollar.

Michael: Right. And if he was smart, he probably had an assignment of insurance claim so he made it from those sites. Not my model. And our properties, there’s rarely something wrong with them. It’s really more something wrong with the seller. And I don’t mean wrong like they’re bad people or there’s something horribly wrong with them. They just have a physical or an emotional reason to move.

As an example, we bought on Friday where he had a week to get some place else. I mean we were his only option to sell a house in a week.

Mark: Yeah.

Michael: And so, we bought it at 60.5 cents on the dollar and we are completely happy with it.

Mark: And no fixing.

Michael: No fixing.

Mark: Sell it on right on the market for appraised value.

Michael: Right. We all sell for appraised value.

Mark: Yeah, that’s true. Yeah.

Michael: Most of us think we have to go to Home Depot to get the ARB done. Well, I don’t want to go to Home Depot. I’ve done enough Home Depot trips. I’m tired of people asking me where the bolts and 2 by 4s are if I go to Home Depot. So, I’m staying away from Home Depot. We work from a central hub and you can buy houses anywhere. So anytime you find – we run algorithm – we run and algorithm model on locations so we know when we go into a location if it’s going to produce the fruit that we need it to produce.

So we’re doing some data sets that tell us yeah, this area is prime. And maybe how we get into the belly of a market and you can get on the upswing of it right as that upswing but then again, you also have indicators inside the market to tell you that go market to it. Then you have a win-win situation.

Mark: It makes sense. So tell me why is it called, your podcast? Shouldn’t it be called

Michael: It just feels better to say, Buy Sell Fix Flip because what works for me – it isn’t the fix all for everybody. I mean in the beginning of a person’s career, if I look at my 660 deals or sales that I have last month and that we only bought 32 of them, if I had knocked on their door, if I had gone out and made a presentation, had I done all the things that usually take some positive and negative reinforcements, mimicking, pacing, neuro-linguistics, and better commands, had I done that, we would have bought more.

And so, all models are pretty good as long as you work them correctly and as long as you’re not wholesaling. Most people are wholesaling a cringe form because they know what they’re doing, is they’re selling majority of their profit because they don’t know how to buy a property or how to finance a sub two finance or seller financing or understand where private capital comes from. And so I understand why they’re doing it but that’s – we don’t do that. We don’t support it.

But there’s a business plan for everybody, and this is the one we have evolved into.

Mark: Yeah, yeah. So tell me about you became the owner of the and everyone knows Yellow Letters.

Michael:, the first year, I did 200 transactions and we started getting people asking, “How did you do it?” Well, it’s all about marketing. I spent 600 grand that year on marketing. Some of it was full page ads on the newspapers and some of it was infomercials airing on TV, some of it was direct mail, some of it was billboards, everything and anything you can imagine $600,000 but it’s relative to the return. So it wasn’t that big of a deal.

But when the market kind of crashed a little bit or crashed a lot, and a lot of the equity-based that was out there were sucked up, then we had to get really particular. We couldn’t do – we couldn’t shotgun market anymore. So we couldn’t do a billboard and know that that billboard was only going to cause fruit that had equity to call us. It would cause a lot of calls but a lot of the calls wouldn’t be the fruit that we wanted.

So then we had to really look at direct mail and then we went back to what we were doing in the direct mail arena. And I was doing a bunch of yellow letters. And so, we decided, “Well, if it works for us, we might as well help other people do it too.” which is the whole concept of my Buy Sell Fix Flip blog and podcast. We had almost a hundred podcasts there. We had some of them, get this, we had some of the podcasts are actual seller calls because we record everything with the seller.

Mark: Right.

Michael: And someone can actually listen in and hear all the tonality, all the embedded commands, all of the pacing that these people, our Alex’s and our Ryan’s, the two-stage negotiators, are going through with the seller. And I think it’s pretty powerful for a new investor to hear because they never heard it before. They don’t know what it sounds like and to be able to say, “Hey, this is what it sounds like.” That that’s why we do what we do.

So I love helping and so it was a way to help. And we created probably the nation’s largest direct mail company for real estate investors. And we do millions and millions and millions of yellow letters. But that’s not the only thing we have. We have post cards, we have zip letters, and all kinds of different platforms to entertain the prospect because when you market, you should market using cluster marketing. So if you just sent out yellow letters, that would be the wrong approach. If you just sent out post cards, that would be the wrong approach. You have to use some cluster marketing.

Mark: Right, right. So you’re saying use a variety of different marketing techniques.

Michael: Right. The same reason Coke has six bottled waters. I mean they’re water inside the bottle but one bottle is square, one bottle is tall, one bottle has a Latin name, one has a European name, and they’re all different kinds of things but it’s water. And we all know that not everybody is going to like square. Well, not everybody is going to like a yellow letter. Not everybody is going to like a post card, and that set of things.

So your message really needs to stay similar but the presentation can be different to cause the person who would accept that presentation over something else to raise their hand and call us.

Mark: Right, right. So is not just yellow letters.

Michael: No.

Mark: It’s a variety of those different marketing techniques.

Michael: Right. And everything from – anything a real estate investor needs from the approach of finding and obtaining a prospect, from door hangers to business cards to all kinds of stuff.

Mark: Right, right. You’re not focused on people that are in any kind of distress situations where short sale or foreclosure.

Michael: Not anymore. There was a time like everybody, we all have to be a short sale expert kind of thing because that is the only opportunity we had or the majority of the opportunity that was out there.

Mark: Right.

Michael: But I think everybody got smart both lender side and investor side. And then when our market started to increase in value or appreciate in value, we started seeing that what was like 9 or 11% of an equity-based inside of a market start climbing with a 20 and the 27 and now in some areas that equity-based positions is over 50%. So now, that 50% market is easier to deal with directly with a seller than it is seller-lender on a short sale situation.

So we got out of the short market. I’m sure some people still do really well. In our model, we need a yes today because we’re spending so much money to confirm the yes. And in the short sale market, the yes doesn’t come for three or four months.

Mark: Right, right. So you’re really doing serious velocity.

Michael: Yeah.

Mark: Yeah.

Michael: I mean this isn’t a game for us. I enjoy it. It’s a lot of fun so it’s kind of a game. But if you systemize your business, you basically create a McDonald’s structure where when you hear a buzzer go off, you could do something.

Mark: Right, right. OK. So your model is we’re going to send out – now, are you sending out offers to people or are they coming to you?

Michael: No. We prospect to them through direct mail.

Mark: OK. So you’re going direct to them.

Michael: And then they call us and say, “Hey, I have an interest in selling the house.” And we qualify them through our script on the Alex’s site. So we have Alex’s script which is the basic inbound. So our call center of Alex’s will answer the phone.

Mark: OK.

Michael: And they’re called Alex because that’s either a guy or a girl name.

Mark: OK, I like that.

Michael: And because it’s important that the prospects think they’re talking to the person who actually wrote them or mail them a piece or whatever it is. And so, they go through the Alex qualification which is basically, “Do you know what your house is worth and what are you going to sell it for?” and those numbers have to be reasonable or reasonably close. And then the Ryan’s stage follows up on that and presents a verbal offer. If we get a verbal acceptance, we send them a written offer. And then go from there.

Mark: OK, great. So Alex qualifies, Ryan closes.

Michael: And Ryan closes on all cash offers. Rarely will Ryan negotiate like seller financing or sub two financing or something like that.

Mark: OK.

Michael: And then we go to our tier three negotiators who are actually qualified and understand seller financing, sub two financing, and understand the trigger words that sellers use. Since everything is recorded, we can listen to all the conversations we’ve had with someone we have under contract. And we can hear the trigger words that were used by them which tells us, this is a seller finance candidate, this is a sub two candidate, or this is literally just a cash candidate. And all three are OK. I mean once an investor understands where cash comes from and as long as you’re buying it less than 60 cents on the dollar, it comes pretty easy.

Mark: Of course, right. That’s interesting. So OK, you’re 19-year-old Michael Quarles again, OK. Today, Michael Quarles get to go back and tell 19-year-odl Michael Quarles, “This is what you should have started with. This is how you should have really started young Michael at 19.” What would you tell him?

Michael: It would not have been possible.

Mark: It would not have been possible. OK.

Michael: Because of some of the technologies that we have that have come about, probably since 1995 and AOL and email was born somewhere ’93, ’94, ’95 era. And then from that, from those platforms, we created Google and MSN and really everybody got into email. And then we had some of the data sets, websites that started forming. And so, probably until 2004, 2005, you couldn’t do those model because there just wasn’t enough technical resource or data resource to utilize it.

Mark: I see.

Michael: So back then, what I would have done is I would have never built a property. I would have only bought properties that were already built. It’s so much cheaper.

Mark: Right.

Michael: And return so much greater. But the moment that ’95 came around, I would absolutely move across and say, “Yeah, do it this way and only done it this way.”

Mark: Right. You would have start as a wholetailer right away.

Michael: Right away. Right away.

Mark: OK. That’s interesting. All right. Now Michael, we’re at that point in the podcast, I’m going to explain to you my business model and ask you, do you think I have the best passive income model? So I buy and sell raw land. And the way I buy it, pennies on the dollar is kind of similar to you. We send out lowball offers and we really look for people who owe back taxes and live out of state. So they’re not really emotionally connected to the property.

And in some way, they’re distressed in the sense that they’re not paying their property taxes. Either they don’t want the property anymore, they can’t afford the property anymore, whatever it may be.

A percentage of those we get to close just like you and then we either flip it at about 300% return on investment or my favorite way and this is where the passive income comes in, is that we do seller financing. So it’s a one-time sale then recurring income. So we usually get our money out on the down and then we have that passive income coming in month after month after month at about a thousand percent return on average.

We don’t have to deal with tenants. We don’t have to deal with renters. We don’t have to deal with repairs. No rehabs. No rodents. Because we don’t have to deal with a tenant, we don’t have to deal with Dodd-Frank or RESPA. The land is exempt. Right?

Michael: Right.

Mark: And we have a very low competition because you don’t go into HD TV and watch flip this land.

Michael: Not yet, right?

Mark: Not yet. Right, exactly. But it’s just not – I mean most of them can’t wrap their heads around land anyway. It wouldn’t make good TV. Michael Quarles,, do I have the best passive income model?

Michael: Best is a big word. I would say that it’s a very good passive business model. And you actually have two passive business models there.

Mark: Right.

Michael: Because when you look at your financing model, that’s passive.

Mark: Right.

Michael: But I am a firm believer that you can have a massive income model and have it passive as long as you’re systemized.

Mark: Exactly. We systematize as well.

Michael: So we can go out and make $27,000 every day because we buy a house a day and we can go out and make whatever you make on every piece of property you buy every day and that could be massive but because you have a system now, it’s passive.

Mark: Correct.

Michael: I don’t know if that makes any sense to anybody listening.

Mark: It makes sense to me. Absolutely.

Michael: So yeah, I would absolutely applaud – I love the returns because they’re much greater than mine. And the word that you use, the lowball offer, I never used that word because I don’t think we ever make one. We make an offer that fits our business model. And so, you just get to make a lower offer which equals a higher return than I get to.

Mark: Right.

Michael: And that’s because you’re finding – which is great. You’re finding the sweet spot which is someone that doesn’t want the property and they’ve shown that because they’re not making the tax payment.

Mark: Exactly. Exactly. All right. Well, great, great. So now, I’m going to put you on the spot again and I want to ask you for your tip of the week, a website, a resource, a book, something actionable where the Best Passive Income Model listeners can go right now and improve their businesses, improve their lives. What do you got?

Michael: I would – I always say this and then some people edit it off. I hope I don’t get edit off. But I always think that there are two books that people should read.

Mark: OK.

Michael: And one is probably going to be more obvious than the other one.

Mark: OK.

Michael: And they both have a lot to do with real estate investing. But someone ought to read The Bible and then go read E-Myth by Michael Gerber

Mark: OK.

Michael: Because when you kind of have a more of an ethical background that you can rely on and then you can systemize your business, which is what Michael Gerber does doing the E-Myth platform.

Mark: Right.

Michael: Then you can kind of tell yourself, “Well, I have a legitimate, honest business that I can now follow forward and utilize and I can make it into a system.”

Mark: I love it. I love it. So the two books, The Bible and the E-Myth. Now, there are two E-Myths, the E-Myth and the E-Myth Revisited.

Michael: Right. Or if someone really wanted to get involved and understand how to systematize their business, just go to the E-Myth’s program where they actually teach you hands on how to systemize a business. I wouldn’t suggest that for everybody. But if anybody out there wants to take a business and actually understand the systematization of it, they have a pretty good business model for that.

Mark: All right, fantastic. My tip of the week is going to be, learn more about Michel Quarles and how he’s crushing it at Go on iTunes, subscribe to his podcast, Buy Sell Fix Flip as well. Check out

Michael: Yellow Letters.

Mark: And yeah, so that’s going to be my tip. Michael, are we good?

Michael: We’re good. And if you have – if you find some land that you don’t want, let me know.

Mark: And vice versa. Absolutely, yeah. I never find land I don’t want.

Michael: Darn it!

Mark: But if you find land that’s not in your model, let us know. We’ll look at the numbers. So Michael, I just want to thank you again for spending your valuable time talking to us about your model, which I absolutely love. And if you guys want to learn more, again, go to and

And look, give me some love. Go to and download for free the Passive Income Blueprint, get the ebook, How to Avoid the Three Fatal Land Buying Mistakes, and of course, get this always informative and engaging podcast delivered each week to your email inbox. And don’t forget, take two minutes and subscribe, rate, and review the podcast so I can keep getting the quality of guests like a Michael Quarles to come on the show.

Michael, thanks again. And I want to thank all the listeners. We’ll see everybody next time.

Outro: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Best Passive Income Model Podcast. Join us next time for more business insights, strategies and helpful tips that will help you grow your passive income through land investing. Stay connected with Mark Podolsky, the Land Geek, on Facebook at

Mark Chats with Investment Property Specialist Matt Bowles


In this episode of the Best Passive Income Model Podcast, Mark chats with Matt Bowles – partner at Maverick Investor Group, educator, world traveller, and nationally recognized investment property specialist. Matt has been featured in major national media to share his expertise and is passionate about helping others understand the power of property investment. He has created a life by design, which allows him to travel the world while managing his successful business.

Matt is here to teach you how – no matter where in the world you are – you can buy the best rental income properties in the US and build your own successful business.  Through Maverick Investor Group, Matt and his partners share their insight into “Turn-key real estate investing for smart people.”

Thank you for listening to The Best Passive Income Model podcast.  Your support helps me attract great guests who share knowledge that you can use to grow your business. 

If you’d like to help out the Land Geek Community, please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast on iTunes.

Tip of The Week:

Check out this episode!

Mark: Hey, it’s Mark Podolsky, the Land Geek, with your favorite nichey real estate website, And honestly, if I could put on the anchorman voice, I would because my guest today, Best Passive Income Model listeners is a big deal.


Matt Bowles is a nationally recognized investment property specialist, educator and partner at Maverick Investor Group. He has been featured in major national media, nothing as prestigious as this podcast but major national media. Matt was named a master investor in one of the top 50 real estate opinion makers and market leaders by Personal Real Estate Investor Magazine.


Matt and his co-founders have helped individual real estate investors buy over a hundred million dollars, million dollars, a hundred million in turnkey residential investment property across 15 states. He also supports a nationwide network of real estate agents in serving their clients but this is really what we’re going to talk about today.


Matt runs his businesses from rooftop pool decks in Dubai, beaches in Rio de Janeiro, outdoor cafes in Paris. He has lived in ten different countries and so far in 2015, he has lived in five. That’s ten different countries since 2014 by the way. And Matt teaches his clients regardless of where they live because I get this a lot, Matt, it’s like, “I live in Canada or the UK or Germany. Can I do – can I invest in US property from anywhere.” How to buy performing rental properties in the best US markets.


Best Passive Income Model listeners, welcome Matt Bowles. Matt, how are you?


Matt: I’m fantastic, Mark. Thank you for having me. I’m really excited to be here.


Mark: Yeah. Most importantly, where are you?


Matt: I am in Lisbon, Portugal today.


Mark: You’re in Lisbon, Portugal. OK. Matt, let’s just get into it. What are you doing? How are you doing this? What is the Matt Bowles secret sauce? I mean I think I have a pretty nice life. I’m in Scottsdale, Arizona. I have a 7-minute commute to my nice office. But man, I’d like to be in Lisbon, Portugal.


Matt: Well, when we founded Maverick Investor Group in 2007, we had a couple very basic tenets and basic principles which was that we wanted to number one, help our clients use real estate as a vehicle for achieving not just wealth, not just building up a net worth and creating passive income but that that would actually a means to an end. And the end of course, which is more valuable in that is ultimately what you’re going to do with that.


So your ability to create the freedom of mobility and travel whenever you want, the ability for you to recapture your time and devote that however you want to, spending more time with your family or more time in the golf course or wherever it maybe, and then the ability to architect and design a lifestyle for yourself that you’re truly, truly passionate about and excited about.


And we believe that real estate is the preeminent vehicle for doing that. So that was our core structure for – the value proposition we wanted to bring to our clients. But also, we wanted to internalize that in our company. So our entire staff at Maverick whether you’re talking about our social media community manager, whether you’re talking about our contract to close coordinator or any of the partners, they all live in different states, some of them in different countries. They’re totally mobile. They travel as much as they want. And they want from their own dream locations.


And we find that as a business, that that creates a culture of happiness and enjoyment that allows us to connect with our clients when we’re helping them design their own financial and lifestyle goals and help them to meet those goals through real estate investing.


Mark: Mark, how do you build in accountability? I mean how come – it wouldn’t bother you that your partners are at a café in Paris drinking an espresso or having steak and frits while you guys are supposed to be flipping turnkey residential properties?


Matt: So the answer to that from a business perspective because it’s even more so a question for the staff, if you’re hiring people that are responsible for delivering particular things, how do you manage that and oversee that and create that accountability if they’re states or even countries away? And I believe and what we found is the answer is that there’s actually a higher level of productivity in the remote mobile workspace. And the reason for that is because we can structure accountability in very particular ways. So if people are paid to do projects and to create certain deliverables, that we have to create oversight systems for that that are to a higher caliber and a more specific standard if it’s remote.


And so, it actually encourages and creates a climate where the checks and balances are more specific. Whereas if people are in the office, just because you’re in the same office doesn’t mean that people are actually going to be more productive and people are talking to a water cooler all the time. They do – they can be on their computer and doing social media. I mean nothing about physical proximity relates in any way to net productivity if you’re talking about our staff and our team.


And so, we create totally alternative ways for people to deliver what they’re responsible for delivering and to have checks and balances on that. And then in exchange for delivering that, they get to live wherever they want and design their own lifestyle.


Mark: Unbelievable! I love it. I love it. Let’s talk about logistics of actually living overseas and investing in US property.


Matt: Yeah.


Mark: What are the tax challenges? What are the logistical challenges besides just – what time is it right now?


Matt: I think I am about five hours ahead of Eastern Standard Time right now. So it’s early evening here in Lisbon. But the answer to the question is that our business model as Maverick Investor Group, what we wanted to do was to be able to serve real estate investors who are all over the United States, in any of the 50 states, and for that matter, all over the world. And to help people be able to buy and own investment properties in the best US real estate markets regardless of where they live.


So if you want to start just with US residents to begin with, we don’t think that people should have to be restricted to buying real estate in their local area. We think that people should be able to buy in the best markets regardless of where they live and to be able to grow and diversify their real estate portfolio and to own, buy, and hold cash flowing rental properties in various different real estate markets.


And one of the reasons for that is because the best real estate markets change over time. Real estate is very local. Real estate goes through local property cycles and it’s more advantageous to buy in certain markets at one point than it might be at another point. So a lot of our clients, you mentioned Arizona, a lot of our clients were buying in the Phoenix area back in 2010 when it was really at a rock bottom, 2009, 2010 and it was more advantageous to buy there at that time. Now, our clients are buying in other markets that are at really stages of recovery cycle than would be a Phoenix, Arizona for example.


So, we wanted to put out a proposition where no matter what point in time people come in to Maverick, we can start working with them on an individual basis to help them buy in the best markets and those markets changes and to help them diversify as those markets changed and then to build a portfolio of cash flowing properties over time. And with that infrastructure, it doesn’t matter where you live. It doesn’t matter what state. It doesn’t matter what country.


But we do – you asked about tax dynamics for foreign nationals and things like that, we have relationships with a network of industry experts that specialize in all of these different various facets of real estates.


So when someone comes in at the Maverick, we do individual consultations with people to understand their real estate investing goals, to understand all of that at an individual level, what their comfort level is and all of that and then their buying criteria and so forth. And then what are the things that they need? What are help that they need? Do they need us to refer them to a CPA that specializes in working with Canadian real estate investors so they understand how to structure their investments and how to deal with their taxes? Do they need us to refer them to an asset protection specialist who can help them start the right type of entity?


We have all of these specialists in our sort of network, kind of our golden Rolodex. And our clients get access to all those experts so that they can use their services as needed.


Mark: That’s phenomenal. That’s phenomenal. I love it. So what is your mix of investors? So is it 75% US, 25% international? Is it 50-50? Are the Chinese beating down your door right now? I mean what is going on Matt Bowles?


Matt: That’s a really interesting question. We started Maverick in 2007. And the answer to your question is that it depends on what year you would be asking me because what happened was when the real estate market crashed in 2008, 2009, even 2010 and it was really, really at the bottom, of course that was a great time to buy but – and so, the foreign nationals recognized that as a great time to buy and they started coming in buying in droves.


A lot of the US investors at that time were actually afraid to buy. I think there was a buyer psychology that said, “Hey, the market is down. I shouldn’t buy.” Which of course is sort of the reverse psychology of what you want to be doing, you want to buy when real estate is on sale. But a lot of people weren’t doing that. And so, the foreign nationals came in and we were just helping tons of them buy a lot of real estate.


Now, the real estate market is going back up and it’s going up quickly and US residents are seeing that and observing that. They’re getting excited about that and they’re really jumping back in the game. So I would say that right now, our client base is definitely a higher percentage of US investors this year. But a few years ago man, we were helping a lot of foreign nationals buy property here.


Mark: OK. But you’re only buying in the US.


Matt: That’s right.


Mark: Because you’re travelling all around the world and maybe you’re seeing, “You know what? The market in London right now for flats is depressed. Why not buy there?” But you only …


Matt: Yeah.


Mark: But yeah.


Matt: Yeah, only – well, and the reason is because I think that the United States right now has the best value proposition of any real estate market in the world that I know of. And so, I think that – and particularly for US investors because they can get all the tax advantages and depreciation and all of these incredible things. I mean real estate in the US for US investors is without question the most tax advantaged asset that there is for example. And so, there are all these other kind of perks to that type of real estate investment. I think a lot of foreign nationals realized that as well. So right now yeah, we think that’s the best investment for real estate in the world.


The international travel stuff and living abroad and all that, that’s exclusively lifestyle design, that’s exclusively by choice. I’m not in Lisbon because I’m meeting with a client or I’m attending a conference or I’m looking at properties. I’m literally just here because I choose to be and that’s what we want to empower not only our staff but our clients as well to be able to do, which is buy real estate in the best markets that are the most investor-advantaged so that they can empower you to live in the places of your choice that are the most lifestyle-advantaged if you will.


Mark: Right, right. Now Matt, are you single? Do you have kids? What’s going on with you personally?


Matt: I’m in a long term relationship. I do not have kids though.


Mark: OK.


Matt: So my partner and I travel together and she also has a mobile occupation that allows her to work virtually as well. So it works out.


Mark: Yeah, because I was wondering, can I Samsung your lifestyle with three kids? I mean what do you think of that? They have to go in these different schools and…


Matt: You know what’s interesting that I want to encourage you to check out, there is an incredible book if you haven’t read it, it’s very popular. It’s in a lot of the languages and a lot of countries now. It’s called The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss.


Mark: Yeah, I did read it of course.


Matt: OK. So that came out in 2007, that book, and that was incredibly influential for us and for our business model and what we wanted to be able to do both with our company as well as our value proposition for our clients. And one of the things that you may want to check out is that he came out with a revised version of that book after the original version.


And the revised version has case studies in the back and it has case study after case study of different types of people, families, kids, all using and applying the principles of lifestyle design that are in that book in various different ways that work for them as a family or these different ways. So I would encourage you to check those out because there are some pretty interesting and creative and inspiring stuff.


Mark: Yeah, I definitely will. And I have to tell you, and don’t take this the wrong way. You would literally be the worst Facebook friend ever because it’s like, “Oh yeah, there is Matt doing this in Portugal. And here’s Matt hanging out in the beach in Italy.” And my wife will be looking at me, she’s like, “Why aren’t you Matt Bowles?” And I’m like, “I don’t know what is so special about this guy that he’s able to do this and have this lifestyle design.”


So – but there isn’t anything specialize about you Matt, in the sense that – you I mean obviously are very special but in the sense that you just consciously made a decision, “This is how I’m going to plan my business. This is how I’m going to plan my life.” And do it, right?


Matt: Right.


Mark: There’s nothing more complicated than that.


Matt: That’s right. And we help our clients do the exact same thing.


Mark: OK. And so, when you say help your clients do the exact same thing, give me an example.


Matt: OK. So everybody’s dream lifestyle if you will is different. OK? So some people might people might look at what I’m doing and they might say, “You know what? That’s cool. That’s interesting. But it’s not what I want to do. What I want to do is I just simply want to have more time to coach my kid’s sports team I want to go to every game. I want to be the coach. I want to be involved in this local volunteer opportunity that’s really important to me. I want to be able to go out in the golf course and play four rounds of golf every week. I want to be able to do this, this, and this.”


And so, that’s great, right? So what we want to empower people to do is just say, “OK, here is what my dream lifestyle works. I’m going to recapture my time so I can do these other things. This is how much money I need to finance my lifestyle.” Which by the way, my lifestyle is a lot less expensive to be totally honest with you than it was when I simply lived in Los Angeles, California in one place and had a mortgaged and have my lifestyle expenses there.


I literally am travelling around the world including plane fare and transportation for a total of lower living expenses than I was when I lived in LA. So it’s definitely nothing more expensive to do what I’m doing but the question is, what do you want to be doing? What’s your dream lifestyle? If you could think of anything, what would it be?


And then the question is then how to create that? So with our clients, when they come in and they want to build a real estate portfolio and buy and hold cash flowing rental properties, one of the things that we encourage them to think about it to think about their long term financial goals. So when you – and some people use the term retirement, when you retire and certainly, for people that want to do that or getting to that point in their life, it’s about how much – how many properties do you need? They are throwing off how much cash flows that your total monthly passive income on a residual monthly basis is going to cover your living expenses.


So how much money do you need to do all the lifestyle things you want to do and then how can you build a real estate portfolio that will create enough passive income every month to cover those things? Now, we like to dramatically expand this concept, the traditional concept of retirement and suggest that people strive to get there a lot sooner than age 65 or whatever the standard retirement age is so that they can achieve that sooner.


And even as they’re building their portfolio, the more passive residual income that’s flowing into them every month, covers more and more of their expenses and requires them to work actively at a job for fewer and fewer hours to meet their needs. And so, that’s how they gradually recapture their time and devote it to other things that they want to be doing.


And so, the big picture is itemized out these lifestyle expenses. What do you want to be doing? Do you want to travel? Do you want to do this or do that? How much does it cost? And itemize that out. You will literally say, “If I could have this much money per month in passive residual income that I didn’t have to actively work for, well, that would cover and allow me to do all this stuff.”


And then say, “OK. How many properties would I have to buy and how much income would they each have net me after all my expenses in order for me to achieve that?” And then they have a goal and then they have a financial plan. And we help them to build that portfolio over time so they can achieve whatever their personal goals are.


Mark: I love it. I love it. But Matt, do I have to be an accredited investor to invest with you at Maverick Investor Group?


Matt: No, certainly not because you’re not “investing” in that sense at all in anything. You’re simply buying a piece of real estate. So you’re simply buying a house in the same way that you would – the same way that you buy the house that you live in or anything else except that’s going to be a rental property and you’re going to lease it out to a tenant. So we definitely don’t deal with any securities.


There’s definitely never any pulling of money of any kind. We don’t syndicate or do anything like that. We are a licensed real estate brokerage in fact. And so, what people are technically doing is that they are coming in and we’re helping them to identify a completely performing rental property. So we’re not talking about rehabbing, wholesaling, flipping, or any kind of active income.


We’re helping them identify a performing investment property that’s already been completely renovated or it’s brand new and it already has a tenant in place paying rent and it already has local property management who is managing the property and dealing with a tenant so that you can buy it and own it from anywhere. You cash flow from the day that you closed and then every month, you just get your property management statement and your check deposited into your account.


So that’s the type of investing we’re talking about and you’re going to completely own the deeded free hold real property and it’s going to be a hard asset that you own and control. So no accreditation or anything else needed.


Mark: So this is done-for-you real estate investing for cash flow. You go out, you find the best markets at the best time, you put it in the tenant, you do all the hard work, and then I come in and say, “Yeah, I’ll buy that.” And I can have a cash on cash return of X and that’s it. And I just pay my management fee and travel the world.


Matt: Yeah. You skipped all the high-risk parts. The high-risk parts are acquiring the distressed asset which maybe is in a worse condition than you thought it was and you’re going to have more renovation expenses that you need to put in. If you’re trying to oversee the renovations yourself, maybe they take longer than you thought. Maybe they cost more than you thought. Maybe it takes you longer to find a tenant than you thought. You have more initial vacancy. Maybe the tenant doesn’t pay as much as you thought. All of that which is the really high-risks stuff is done for you. That’s all taken care of.


We have teams on the ground in these different markets which was separate independently capitalized companies that are different from Maverick. We have relationships with these teams. And they are local market experts who are independently well-capitalized, well-resourced. They have their relationships. They have the networks. They are the local experts. They know exactly what micro markets to buy in and which ones not to buy in. They know exact – they have totally economies of scale and vertically integrated operations where they manage the asset in addition to doing all the construction, the renovation and everything else. So, all these economies of scale benefit the end investor, because it’s not an individual trying to do it themselves. They buy all their materials in bulk. They renovate, scale and everything.


So when you come in to Maverick, we’re able to say, “OK. Based on your buying criteria and your investing goals, which markets would be the best for you? Here are the advantages of this market versus that market.” And then when you want to buy something, you’re just in the position to evaluate the deal and then do your due diligence on the deal and then make a buying decision. And if you choose to purchase the property, you cash flow from the day that you closed. It’s totally turnkey.


Mark: Phenomenal. And what about the money, Matt, how much leverage can I use on these deals?


Matt: So if you’re a qualified borrower, our clients are getting conventional lending and they are getting financing up to 80% of the value of the purchase price. So they’re putting 20% down and getting 80% mortgages if you’re qualified to do that. Right now in the conventional lending arena, most lenders will let you go up to about ten properties.


Typically again, if you’re qualified borrower, typically the first four would be at about 20% down, 80% mortgage and then the next six properties would be about a little bit more, maybe 25% down or so. But yeah, our clients are absolutely leveraging. And while interest rates are so low, trying to get as many mortgages as they can to use that intelligent leverage.


Mark: Right. And so, the eleventh property, I can’t get, correct? Unless I pay cash because of Dodd-Frank?


Matt: Yeah. Right now, the lending – I mean the lending guidelines always change. So we’ve seen all sorts of guidelines. We’ve been like I said, we’ve been in business since 2007 and I’ve been a real estate investor prior to that. So we’ve seen all sorts of different guidelines changed and stuff. And they change all the time.


So right now, that’s pretty much the standard that you can go up to ten and then once you’re over ten, yeah, you’d either have to pay cash or you’d have to use a private financing which is going to be more expensive than conventional lending or different things like that.


Mark: Yeah, yeah. It’s so funny because I think I got so excited that you are in Portugal, we skipped – usually, the first question I ask which is, how does Matt Bowles become Matt Bowles? I mean where did you start? And then how did you transformed into Maverick Investor Group?


Matt: Yeah, great question. So, it’s interesting because I started my – my academic background has nothing at all to do with business or real estate in any way, shape, or form. I have a bachelor’s degree from college in Sociology and I have a master’s degree in International Peace and Conflict Resolution. And after getting that, I worked in the non-profit space in Washington, DC for many, many years, just working on causes that I cared about, human rights issues, social justice issues, civil liberties issues, that kind of stuff.


And as I was working in the non-profit space making like $40,000 a year, I realized that if I’m going to work in this non-profit world, I better figure out how to do some investing on the side because my salary certainly isn’t going to produce a whole lot of income and savings and that kind of stuff for me.


So I started reading about real estate investing. And somebody said to me, “Hey, you should buy a house.” It was 2004. Market is booming. Somebody said, “Hey, you should buy a house.” I was like, “I can’t afford to buy a house. I’m working in a non-profit.” And he was like, “No. Yeah, you can. You can do this.” I looked into it. And sure enough, I could buy a house.


I was like, “Wow! It’s amazing. I never thought I could buy a house on my salary but OK.” Because back then, you could get like a hundred percent financing. I mean it was crazy but you could get back then. Right?


Mark: Right.


Matt: But anyway, so I’m like OK. So I buy a house in Washington DC and what I do is I buy a 4-bedroom house and I rent out three of the bedrooms to friends of mine. OK?


Mark: OK.


Matt: So they’re paying me rent. That rent is covering my mortgage and here I am owning the property which is soaring up in value, right?


Mark: Right, right.


Matt: So ten months after I own the property, I’m ten months into this property that I’m living in and I get it appraised and it appraises for 40, 4-0, 40% higher than what I bought it for.


Mark: Wow!


Matt: In ten months, OK? Now, I bought it for $320,000 and it appraised for $440,000 in less than a year. And so I’m like, whoa! All of a sudden, I just like – I literally like stopped in my tracks and I said, wait a minute. I work like 60 hours a week and I make $40,000 a year. My house just appreciated in value $120,000 in one year. I literally could have sat on my couch and played video games the whole year and made three times as much money than I make in my job.


Mark: Right, right.


Matt: So I was like, whoa man! That’s unbelievable. So now, I really started reading about real estate and all the stuff and how I can replicate this or whatever. This was the area where I live. And so now, I said, “OK, I got to start studying other real estate markets.” And so what I did is I did a refinance on that to borrow the equity and for the purpose of reinvesting it, which is of course, what you always want to do when you do a cash-out refinance. You don’t want to take the money and go on a vacation or buy a car.


Mark: Right.


Matt: But if you’re going to reinvest it, another income-generating source. So I do that and then I go down to other markets that were doing well at the time, Las Vegas and Phoenix and Florida and some of these different markets and I was trying to get in at the right time there and buy rental properties and ended up doing that. And I ended up just buying probably geez, I don’t know, at least about $3 million or so worth of rental properties by kind of parlaying this stuff.


And as I was doing that, as I was buying properties, what happened is, my friends started coming over to me and they started saying, “Hey man, how are you doing that real estate stuff? Like can we do that with you too?” And I was like, “Yeah, sure.” So when I started showing how I was doing those buying, and what we found out was if we were to go in and buy real estate together like a few of us and we say, “We’re each going to buy two units from you, a total of six units. Hey, can we get like a deal on that? Like can you give us some special terms or a little discount or something if we buy six instead of just me buying one by myself?” And they’re like, “Yeah, we can do something for you.”


Mark: Yeah.


Matt: And so then, all of a sudden, the light bulb went on and I said, “Hey. Whoa! If this is kind of working on this personal level, what if we took it to the business level and we created a business which would become Maverick Investor Group whereby we are offering all of these clients to come in and we have pre-negotiated relationships with these types of property providers where based on the volume of business we can refer into them and bring with us, then they would be able to offer our clients special prices and terms that would not be available to the general public or the individual buyer.


And that’s where the Maverick business model came from. And so, in 2007, we got everything all set up, all of our entities and brokerage license and everything all set up so we could run this completely legally and above board and do all this properly because real estate is a highly regulated industry.


And we had all those ducks in a row and in 2007, we launched and ever since then, that’s exactly what we have been doing is helping individual investors meet their investing goals and so forth by being able to provide them access to not only property in the best markets but property in the best markets that’s performing and with special terms and prices that would not be available to the general public because of the volume of business that we’re able to refer into them.


Mark: I love it. I love it. All right, Matt. We’re at that point in the podcast now where I’m going to explain to you my business model and ask you if I have the best passive income model. So, I buy and sell raw land. And the way I do it is I look for somebody that’s out of state and owes back taxes. So our seller is distressed in some way and advertising that they are distressed. We send a lowball offer. They accept it. We close on it and then we can either flip it online for 300% return or and this is my favorite way of doing it, is we get our money out on the down payment so we’re whole on the down and then we get recurring income from the promissory note, so we’re owner-financing. OK?


So basically, it’s a one-time sale and then passive income. Now because it’s raw land, we don’t have to deal with renters, no repairs, no renovations, no rodents. And they’re a noncompetitive niche. Matt, you don’t go on TV and see “Flip this land,” On HD TV. We don’t have to deal with Dodd-Frank and we don’t have to deal with RESPA because we’re not dealing with a tenant. So there is no government regulation, noncompetitive, nothing physical. Matt Bowles, do I have the best passive income model because our returns are over a thousand percent on those notes?


Matt: Here is what I would say. I would say that it sounds to me like and what I know of you, Mark, is that you are a niche expert in this particular space. And that you are able to achieve incredible investment returns in this space because you have an advantage in this space. OK?


Mark: OK.


Matt: And therefore, I think that for you, it sounds like that is the best model for you. I think that what’s important and what we always emphasize to clients and anybody that I talk to really I think is that I don’t make an argument that a particular asset, class or a particular niche in the real estate space is inherently and always better or worse than something else. What I think really matters is expertise and your ability to cultivate an advantage in a particular space. OK?


And so, if you’re passionate about land, obviously you are, and you’ve spent your time, you have the experience and you have the relationships and you have the knowledge and you have an advantage over other people that are trying to operate in that space then I think it is the best for you.


I think other people are able to cultivate a greater advantage for themselves in different spaces and therefore it would be more advantageous for them to operate in the space where they have the advantage. For example, a lot of our clients love buying and holding residential investment properties because they can take the phantom loss, the phantom expensive depreciation on the property even if the property goes up in value. They can take a loss on it and use that loss to offset the passive cash flow that they’re receiving from their properties.


So, our clients that are working with competent CPAs can literally pay no income tax on all of the passive income that they’re receiving. So, a lot of people love that aspect. But again, whatever niche you’re in, you’ve got to be just focused and become an expert and cultivate an advantage in one place. And there are a lot of spaces in a real estate market I think where you can make money if you have an advantage.


Mark: So basically what you’re saying is I have the best passive income model.


Matt: I think for you, you do. I think for you, you do because that’s where you put your time in developing your expertise. Now, you have an advantage over other people in the space and now, you’re able to consistently produce these returns for yourself. But it doesn’t mean that a random new person walking into that space would be able to do and replicate the exact same thing that you’re doing if they didn’t have you to guide them, if they didn’t have the advantages and the expertise and the knowledge that you have.


So I think for you, it sounds like absolutely that’s where you should focus your time and energy for sure.


Mark: OK. All right. No worries. Now, I’m going to put on the spot again and I’m going to ask you for your tip of the week, a website, a resource, a book, a quote, something actionable where our Best Passive Income Model listeners can go right now and improve their businesses and improve their lives. Matt Bowles, what do you have?


Matt: On our website,, we have a tab there on the home page that you’re going to see called Resources. And if you go to that tab, you’re going to see a dropdown menu with education content from a number of industry experts who are talking about specific aspects of the real estate investment space. So understanding the real estate tax secrets of the rich and how you can use those in your real estate investing, understanding asset protection, understanding how to invest in real estate using your retirement plan, understanding these various different components.


And so, it’s high value, substantive, educational content. And I would encourage people to go there and that will give you sort of a menu of different things that you can choose from depending on where you like to get – what you need to be educated on.


Mark: All right. Fantastic. I love it. And my tip of the week is going to be a little bit different. But I do want everybody go to But if you haven’t checked out, Matt, have you heard of


Matt: I have not.


Mark: Check it out. I’m not going to go into it. But check out – learn more about Matt at And Matt, are we good?


Matt: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me. This is fantastic.


Mark: No. This is fantastic and I was joking about that whole thing about being a Facebook friend. I’d love to follow you and live vicariously because you are living the dream.


Matt: What we are, we are also – I mean, that’s the other thing I’d say, we are on social media. So if you go to – we are on a lot of different channels. We are on Instagram. We are on Pinterest. Wherever you are, we are pretty active in a lot of different social media and we’re definitely posting content from different world travels, behind the scene stuff, as well as substantive real estate content.


So if you go to our home page at, at the very top, you’re going to see our social media icons and hit us up. Check us out. Follow us. We love interacting and engaging with folks on social and it’s kind of a fun way to get a little more personal and see what’s going on in people’s lives. So we’d love to connect with you there.


Mark: That’s great. That’s great. And I do want to remind the Best Passive Income Model listeners, please, please rate, review, subscribe to the podcast. This helps us get guest of the caliber of Matt Bowles. And also, give me some love. Go to and download for free the Passive Income Blueprint. Get the ebook, How to Avoid the Three Fatal Land Buying Mistakes and of course, get this always informative and engaging podcast delivered each week to your email inbox.


Matt Bowles,, thanks again. I really appreciate all the way from Lisbon, Portugal.


Matt: Thanks Mark, my pleasure.


Mark: Thank you and we’ll see everybody next time.


Outro: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Best Passive Income Model Podcast. Join us next time for more business insights, strategies and helpful tips that will help you grow your passive income through land investing. Stay connected with Mark Podolsky, the Land Geek, on Facebook at


[End of transcript]

Mark Chats with Frank Rolfe – 8th Largest Owner of Mobile Home Parks in the World


In this episode I chat with Frank Rolfe, the 8th largest owner of mobile home parks in the world. Frank discusses how Conrad Hilton inspired him to take chances and propel his business forward – big time. Conrad believed in going on the attack during recessions and depressions and it really paid off for him.

The lesson Frank wants to share is this: When times are tough, don’t crumble or hide from it; that’s the time you take whatever ammunition you have and go on the attack. Frank wants us all to remember to never give in – there are always opportunities during depressions for those who are brave enough to go for it.

Learn more about Frank by visiting his website

Want to learn how to flip land?  Get The Passive Income Launch Kit today for $7.00 ($97 Value) at

Invest in Wholesale land at

Check out this episode!